2.0 HDI engine code RHR fault info required

[unclepumble]

Hope you can help I have a citroen C4 2.0 HDI 136 engine code RHR. my reason for posting on here is i belive the same engine is used in the pug 407, and ford focus.

I have suffered a diesel runaway, destroying 2 injectors.

The garage carrying out repair are trying to tell me that the car was overfilled with oil (I can assure anyone the engine was not overfilled with oil) I check the level every week along with the water, due to the fact I travel approx 450-500 miles per week.
Over the time I have owned the car 12 months 18,000 miles it has never needed an oil top up between services etc.


However I did a little searching on the history of the vehicle & discovered the vehicle has previously required an engine replacment at approx 16,500 miles in 2006, the last owner informed me that he had also had a diesel run away and some of the injectors had burnt out, his main dealer had also informed him that the car had been overfilled with oil, he was adamant that the car had not been overfilled therfore drained the oil from the sump and had it analysed, the previous owner recived a report from rock oil that stated his oil was badly contaminated with fuel and the sample was 40% diesel, he had a few words with citroen regarding fault and after consulting several mechanics etc it was concluded that diesel had bypassed the injectors and filled the sump causing the diesel runaway.

I checked my oil level after I had the runaway and found the oil level way above max, I have yet to try and take a sample of the fluid in the sump, as The garage repairing the car for me (an engine swap) have drained the sump, (hopefully I will be able to get a suitable sample by removing the sump of the suspect engine.

Any how is anyone aware of any faults on peugeot models with this engine, RHR 136 2ltr HDI I have been informed there was a recall on siemens injectors in 2004 on the 307 but have been unable to get solid answers as of yet (i belive my car may be fitted with siemens injectors as most of the other electrics ecu etc are siemens)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Shane Swindells

[Piston Broke]

Plenty of faults, especially with emcon related equipment, but I've never come across this on a PSA unit before, only once on a Nissan Terrano and once on a Focus TDDi, and both were due to overfilling.

What can happen if a diesel is overfilled is that the excess oil gets pumped out the breathers into the inlet tract. Diesel essentially being a light oil means the engine runs quite happily on engine oil, and then accelerates causing even more oil to pump into the inlet tract, and on it goes until the engine lets go or the oil is exhausted.

It's a scary experience if it happens to you, and the Terrano owner even had the fire brigade out fearing the engine would literally explode and shower the street with shrapnel. It didn't, making only a loud bang before stopping.

The other potential culprit, although I have never come across this or even heard of it, is the fuel pump failing and somehow locking 'open'. However, switching off the ignition should close the stop solenoid and the engine should then stop. If switching the ignition off doesn't help then it's probably an oil runaway.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that some kind of fuel leak or contamination has raised the oil level sufficiently to cause a runaway. However, I would think this less likely - the HDi system runs an incredible fuel pressure and a leak can punch a hole in alloy, or sever a finger, so I would have thought it likely some other symptoms would be apparent, plus it would take a while for the level to rise and your weekly levels check would have spotted this.

It's worth having the the oil tested as you never know, but I'm afraid that if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

The likelyhood of the man on the spanners being able to point to a specific component as causing the failure is slim. That said, if the fuel is heavily fuel contaminated again then the entire fuel system will require replacing, including ECU, injectors, pump, etc, as no one will know which of these components is at fault - why risk a third engine to the same fate by recycling the original fuel management components?

A tricky one and I hope it gets resolved. Let us know how you get on.

[unclepumble]

I am absolutely positive the engine was not overfilled with oil before the fault occurred. therefore would expect to rule that out.

I have done a little digging around via certain contacts I have in the motor trade, & I know there is an issue with o rings on the injectors on these engines, however if this fault is present the diesel etc in the engine usually blows out of the cylinder past the injector & makes a mess of the outside of cylinder head (carbon and tar deposits etc),

I have also heard of air being sucked into the cylinder in this way and the injector tip being cut off by excessive combustion, the injector tip looking similar to being cut off by a plasma cutter, this then causes the cylinder to flood with diesel, the sump becomes filled with derv and the engine runs on in a runaway. (i am lead to believe this is extremely rare though)

I am however inclined to think at the moment that this is the strongest possibility.

I do feel there is some sort of cover up in regard to diesel runaways on these models of engine however, as the day after I had my problem & telephoned several main dealerships speaking to (technicians and service managers) in my area to ask if they had dealt with similar problems, all stating they had never heard of it or come across it.

One in particular dealer in staffordshire, stated they had only ever come across a diesel runaway on an SX (i think) many years ago where the engine had developed an internal oil leak, and the technician I spoke to there stated he had worked for citroen for years. However when I have done further enquiries this week in regard to the engine swap under warranty due to an diesel runaway and respective engine failure, It was in fact the very same dealer who stated he had never ever come across a runaway on a modern citroen diesel.

Further to this citroen UK informed me on my first enquiry to them yesterday. They had no record of the engine being replaced under warranty on my vehicle only 2 recalls, I then met the previous owner had an in depth chat with him and received copies of written correspondence that he had from citroen over the matter in 2006.

I then re-telephoned citroen to ask why they had no record of the warranty work, was passed through to another department. who then informed me that yes the engine had been replaced under warranty, I then asked if there were any manufacturing faults known on the engine, etc etc, I was then passed onto a manager at citroen UK who after a while of me asking for information on faults/manufacturing defects etc, and further information on why the engine had been replaced in 2006, he Informed me that the engine hadn't been replaced, but had been repaired under warranty, and also added that I may have possibly have a warranty claim on the engine pending a citroen main dealers report, on the fault.

This really raised my eyebrows, and I ask several other questions as to why I would be covered under any warranty etc on a 5 year old car, and a 3 year old engine, and also said at that point I would be unhappy for citroen to examine my broken engine any further, as I had suspicions, and would rather have an independent engineer inspect it, to which I was informed by citroen UK I was perfectly within my rights to do so but what did I expect of Citroen uk.

To this I said that up until my conversation with Citroen UK I had no intention of pursuing them, and that my call was purely for information in regard to known engine faults, as I was gathering evidence in the intention of pursuing the Private dealer I had purchased the car from, end of.

I have today contacted DVLA who have informed me that the engine was indeed replaced in 2006 they had been informed of the change in May 2006.

Therefore my next line of questioning to Citroen UK is to ask for the full citroen engineering fault report on the original engine, however I doubt they will be forthcoming with this.

I have also contacted Peugeot UK asking for information regarding any similar faults on 407 307 diesels fitted with the 2.0ltr HDI engine but they could not give me any information unless I was very specific (suprise suprise)

Ford have also been very unhelpful.

Therefore These lines of enquiry via forums etc are my only current source of info.

[Piston Broke]

It's all very plausible, although I'm not sure there's any cover up - your's is the first example of a PSA unit going this way that I've ever come across. The injector problem you describe is also a new one on me, so not likely to be widespread, at least not on Peugeots - I don't know if the units as fitted to citroens differ in detail.

There's quite a hefty list of recalls on 407 diesels, but nothing that seems relevant to your problem. Be aware also that the 307 almost exclusively used the DW10TD, rather than the DW10TED4 fitted to the 407 - it's related, but significantly different, including the fuel system.

I've put the word out among my contacts, some of whom earn their living with independant diesel specialists, some of whom are pug techs, and we'll see if anything relevant comes up. They've no axe to grind so if there is any info available on the Peugeot side of the fence it should come to light.

Is your supplying dealer taking any particular stance?

[Piston Broke]

I've just had a text back from JRH, a friend of mine who was with me when I was at another dealer. He has been at his current Peugeot dealer for 11 years.

He has no experience of a PSA unit either running away. He's had the odd one with an injector leak but not terribly often. They usually manifest themselves with excessive smoke and poor power under load. He says some Citroens use SIEMENS SID803A management, which is slightly different to that employed on the 407. If you had a Pug he would be able to check the service bulletins agains the VIN - perhaps you could find a Citroen dealer away from your area who would check for you?

I've one more source I'd like to tap but I've had to email him. When he replies I'll let you know.

[unclepumble]

I have recived the following information from a 407 forum I have also posted on.

"I've heard of this happening on a 307 1.6 hdi where the owner was alerted by the "oil level high" warning been displayed.
when he got the oil replaced he discovered that the old oil has alot of diesel mixed in with it......
The owner kept lowering the oil level which prevented a runaway.
In the end this problem was comming from the fap system where the fuel cap sensor was faulty and the engine
was trying to regenerate all the time....a new fuel cap sensor fitted and the system reset seemed to sort out the problem."

My car is still at the Citroen main dealers therefore I will be asking them to check this out before taking delivery of the car early next week.

I understand that the 307's had a slightly different unit, I have however heard that they employed siemens management, and at some point the management on them was changed to bosch, due to some problem with the management system, however how true this is i don't know, I am just going off what I was told by a car enthusiast.

[Piston Broke]

I've never heard of it but the FAP scenario does make sense and could be worth investigating.

The 307s had a totally different unit, all bar a few of the very expensive and rare sporty 136 versions. Most 2 litre 307s were DW10TDs which had a similar but different block originally derived from the old XuD, 8v head, no intercooler and an older Siemans system than the 803. They eventully went to Bocsh EDC 15C2 which was fitted to the 406, 805, phI 607HDi's etc, so was probably done to rationalise production across the range.

Let us know how it goes. Could be a good one to store away for future reference.