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Post by oldpug on Jan 11, 2011 16:49:39 GMT
Planning a couple of trips to France & Belgium and the E10 ethanol fuel question crops up again.Just what will happen if my Kugelfischer injection system runs on this?(it cost me a small mortgage!!) does E10 really "eat" metal tanks and fuel systems? easy question,is normal un-leaded fuel still available in France & Belgium.
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Post by misterbridger on Jan 11, 2011 17:37:34 GMT
Went over in my old Mini last summer and normal unleaded is pretty much everywhere. Only once came across a garage that only had E10. Just make sure you don't need to fill up on a sunday as it's strictly only self service supermarket fuel.
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Post by oldpug on Jan 11, 2011 17:48:28 GMT
That`s a good tip about Sundays.
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elemwalker
Poster boy
1970 504 Cabriolet
Posts: 108
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Post by elemwalker on Jan 14, 2011 10:34:03 GMT
Ooh thanks for the tips, I didn't know about this E10 petrol problem?
Are there any additives that prevent damge etc?
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Post by oldpug on Jan 16, 2011 11:35:35 GMT
Try getting a straight answer on the net?Fuel companies will not admit to anything,just to say E10 is designed for use in new cars. We were advised by the organizers of a classic car tour to Europe not to use it as it can damage metal fuel tanks,fuel lines and other components in old cars.As normal un-leaded fuel is sold everywhere I`m not bothered but my question still is,just what can happen.The way I understand it is E10 is "green" fuel and contains 10% ethanol.Ethanol is a solvent (alcohol) it can "eat" things and absorbs moisture.I get all different advice as to what happens.The other problem with E10 is its "sell by date" you can not store it for months.All scientists/chemists/boffins please reply.
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Post by Donaldiesel on Jan 18, 2011 5:02:56 GMT
Better take notice of this because E10 is coming to UK in 2013. At present, UK fuel contains up to 5% Bio Ethanol, and most classics are ok on this. However, at 10% Ethanol, problems may start to show up. Legally, 5% does not have to be labeled at the pump, but 10% and over does.
As post above, it absorbs moisture. In a car that is not used often the moisture laden Ethanol tends to separate out from the petrol and sink to the bottom of the tank, causing corrosion. When you next try to start the engine, moisture & corrosion products are drawn through, blocking filters or clogging carb jets.
It reacts with copper, so copper fuel lines are not suitable. Some suppliers of classic components don't seem to be aware of this and offer copper replacement fuel lines.
It attacks natural rubber, causing seals to fail and fuel leaks. Potentially dangerous.
Ethanol is more volatile than petrol, so vapour lock can be a problem if the carb gets too hot. Additional cooling may be needed. Ethanol has less energy per volume, so MPG is reduced, making the fuel more expensive than it appears. Carb jets may need re calibrating to prevent the engine running weak and overheating.
The first line of defense is a good fuel line filter if there is not one already, and all new flexible fuel lines. That will keep you going for a while on E10. Then consider a new stainless steel tank or a special lining for the existing one, new stainless steel fuel lines, viton flexible fuel lines and viton seals wherever there are natural rubber ones. This will prepare you for higher concentrations likely to be imposed on us in the future.
The good news is that Peugeot are a European manufacturer, distributing worldwide, so are likely to be ahead of the game on this issue. Eg, US are currently pushing for E15, and already have E100 for a new breed of multi-fuel vehicles. Peugeot cars older than other manufacturers offerings will be ok on E10 and higher, though I don't know when they started making them compatible.
Yes, ethanol is hailed as a 'green' fuel. It is considered better to let third world countries suffer the market distortion of food prices as crops are turned over to fuel production so we can be seen to be green. The 'green' credentials are questionable when you consider the energy needed to convert corn starch into ethanol fuel.
There are similar issues with biodiesel additive attacking fuel system components. Peugeot diesels from the early '90s can handle this.
Modern petrol engines detect the oxygen content remaining in the combustion gasses (lambda sensor) and via the on board computer (ECU) constantly vary the injection volume to give the best mixture. Thus the engine runs well on a range of ethanol proportions.
Donaldiesel
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Post by oldpug on Jan 18, 2011 11:55:36 GMT
That`s a very good reply Donald,thank you.As long as we still have a choice of unleaded or E10 no problem,BUT!. Think of my 404 in storage for 4-5 winter months with E10 in its metal tank,Kugelfischer injection pump,copper washers and banjo unions all over the place,I think I would be in trouble.I can not imagine a day when classic cars can not be used on the road,but it is a bit of a concern.As you say about "green" credentials,if fuel was 100% ethanol world wide,half the world would starve!!
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